Spouse Visa Rejected

[Babybah]

Date of application: 3rd August 2009

Nationality: Egyptian

Visa type: Spouse visa (309)

Offshore/onshore: Off shore

Medicals submitted (yes/no): yes with application

Police check submitted (yes/no):yes with application

Date CO assigned: on day of application 3rd August 2009

Date visa granted: VISA REJECTED 14th December 2009

Applied to MRT (Migration Review Tribunal): 15th January 2010

MRT Hearing: 4th March 2010

MRT Remitted decision as we fit the criteria for spouse visa and it was sent back to Egypt: 9th March 2010

Egypt Received Remitted decision from MRT: 31st March 2010

[Sheelagh Blanckenberg]

Hi Babybah

Welcome to the Migration Help forum.

I am very sorry to hear your partner visa was rejected.

Are you able to share with us on what grounds the refusal was made?

Kind regards

Sheelagh

[Babybah]

Hi Sheelagh,
The SMO didn't believe my husband was genuine and our relationship would continue...
My husband is muslim and there is a 9 year age difference between us, that was a big focus to her in the interview and that he has been married before etc...(she obviously didn't write this in her rejection of course, but what she talked about in the interview to both of us seperately) She had made up her mind before we entered the interview, this i could tell straight away, she didn't even introduce herself to me when i entered the interview by myself and barely took her eyes off the computer screen and was constantly typing the whole time.. The only time she looked at me was when she was going on about our age difference and giving her bias opinions etc. It took me 3 weeks to get over that interview, it was so horrible. This is one of the most distressing, agonizing, heartbreaking things i have been through in my whole life and we gave so much evidence and put so much work into our application for someone to come to that decision in 50min interview.... Not to mention, how hurtful it is to read that a total stranger can say that my husband isn't genuine and she doesn't feel our relationship will be contining... I think i'd be the better judge of that not her... I have been so sick, can't sleep without sleeping tablets and depressed over this whole process.... Now we have to wait again and fork out more money for a decision that was so wrong! Its not fair.. And totally heartbreaking for both my husband and I, it took me over a month to work up the strength to apply to the MRT, my sister flew from Australia to us in Egypt as she is so worried about us and my mental & physical state.
Hope that answers your question to some degree
Kind Regards,
Babybah

[Robert]

Hi Babybah

Take comfort in that Departmental officers do not apply their discretion judicially:

See what the Judiciary says about such interviews:

a. In the assessment of genuine marital relationship under the relevant legislations in the context of cultural sensitivity His Honour Justice Wilcox observes in Prasad v Minister for Immigration and Ethnic Affairs (1985) ALR 549,

''It is not possible to carry out a proper investigation of such a complex question as the nature and future prospects of a marriage relationship by conducting one 20 minute interview with each party to the marriage. For most interviews an interview of this kind represents a considerable ordeal. It involves discussing with complete stranger, an official in whose hands one's future is thought to lie, personal -even intimate - matters. Most people take some time to relax, and to talk freely, in such a situation. Sufficient time has to be allowed for this to occur, the more especially where one or both of the parties is young - Mrs Prasad was still only 20 - or timid........ I regard it as simply unacceptable that an investigating officer should be asked to form a judgment relating to the genuiness of a marriage by assessing the answers given by nervous and possibly confused people to rushed quiz."


I do specialise is MRT appeals for spouse cases and the above was one para of the many I have cited. If you have appointed an agent for your MRT I will be pleased to provide him/her with some supportive comments, bro bono if he/she needs it.

Best wishes.

Robert K Chelliah
Registered agent 9254011
www.austmigration.com.au

[Sheelagh Blanckenberg]

Dear Robert

Thanks so much for your post to Babybah and your kind offer of assistance.

Babybah, Robert has been a migration practitioner for over 30 years and has had some amazing wins at the MRT which have involved multicultural issues. If you or your migration agent need any help with the MRT please do not hesitate to contact him.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Kind regards
Sheelagh

[Babybah]

Thank you Sheelagh and Robert, I had got your name Robert from someone on another forum, she had said she seen a few posts from you regarding MRT & cultural differences etc...I really appreciate your taking the time to post the above and had read it from somewhere on here last week i think. Unfortunately, we can't afford a migration agent, we will be doing this on our own, i've just been trying to find other people who have gone through this to give me some support as you can imagine i'm in a terrible state and am still in shock. I believe that the MRT will see that our case is very real and I have to put my faith in that. I have read cases on there website and have felt somewhat at ease. Thank you so much for taking the time in this busy world of ours to take the time to write something positive... =) I really think something needs to be done about the people who make these decisions so willy nilly and on my return to Australia i will be saying alot more.
Hope you both have a lovely day
Kind Regards,
Babybah

[Sheelagh Blanckenberg]

Babybah, Robert is currently overseas so is unlikely to have read your latest post.

Please continue posting any questions you may have about the MRT process - I am sure you will get a lot of advice and support from other participants in the forum and once Robert is back it is my guess he will take time out to help you in whatever way he can too.

Kind regards
Sheelagh

[Babybah]

Thank you so much Sheelagh =)
I do have a question, when a decision by the MRT is over turned, what happens from there? Do you then get the visa? I can't find anything on that question.
Kind Regards and thanks again
Babybah

[Sheelagh Blanckenberg]

Hi Babybah

If DIAC's original decision is overturned by the MRT it goes back to DIAC. DIAC then have to continue 'processing' the application. If DIAC find no further issues with the application eg in relation to health or police checks, and all other criteria are met they will then finalise the application and grant the visa.
Cheers
Sheelagh

[Robert]

Shelagh has clarified the process. Sheelagh, You may wish to edit the MRT appeal I emailed the other day to you and Amin, and post it in the forum, courtesy of Migration Help. There may be others who may find some of the arguments useful in their application and appeals. I have no objec tion for it to be posted, provided you can edit it for privacy and points that are irrelevant.

Thanks Sheelagh

Robert K Chelliah

[Babybah]

Thanks Robert, I'd be interested in reading that, can you tell me where to find it once you have posted it. I'm not really good at finding my way around these forums!

Also can it take years after its been overturned by MRT once its gone back to immigration as I seen one lady in another forum, who got hers overturned and she's been waiting 3 years! That just doesn't seem right to me... All my husbands, medicals, police check and form 80 came back clear, so what else would they want to clear?

I can't find anyone else who is going through this or they just don't want to post anything. =(

thanks BabyBah

[Robert]

I have requested this Forums Admin to post an edited version of my full MRT appeal which addresses the issues of flawed decsion making by the Deaprtment case officers. The case was successfully remitted and now the couple have settled happily in WA with their cute little second child.

It addresses the missused concept of :
"marriage of convenience"
inherent bias by the case officer
cultural bias
need to interpret all Australian legislation in the context of multicultural social values
the excercise of discretionarry power within the principles of administarive laws of natural justice
assesment for genuine relationship
bias in inyerviewing technique
etc etc.

It is an easy to follow arguments in simple langauge that any self help clients can use to mount their appeal to MRT.

Robert K Chelliah
RMA 92-54011
www.austmigration.com.au

[Babybah]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for that, have the forum admin posted your edited version of MRT appeals yet, I can't seem to find it?

If you could point me in the right direction, that would be great.

thanks
Babybah

[Robert]

Hi Babybah

The Admin staff I spoke to yesterday was overworked and is aware of the request. she would be posting the MRT appeal , minus irrlevant case specific arguments, in the forum any time. In any case your MRT will take a few more months for the hearing/decsion making.

Robert K Chelliah
rkc@austmigration.com.sg

[Migration Help]

Dear Babybah

My apologies for taking so long to get Robert's appeal posted on the forum.
The appeal is large so I have had to cut it down as well as remove personal/sensitive information - I hope in so doing it has not made it unreadable. I think the gist of it is there though and should be a good template for you to use for your own submission. I have also had to split it into 3 parts in order to post it on the forum.

If you have any queries, please feel free to contact us.

******
1.0 This appeal refers to the visa refusal for a visa class UF, Subclass 309 Spouse (Provisional) application submitted at the Australian Consulate General – [deleted] on the [deleted].

The DIMA’s primary decision maker, the delegate, decided to refuse to grant the visa on [deleted]. The delegate was not satisfied that the review applicant and visa applicant were in a genuine and continuing spouse relationship at the time of the visa application. The delegate suspected the review applicant’s marriage was contrived for the purpose of migration. The delegate assessed that the visa applicant and the sponsor had not satisfied that a genuine spousal relationship exists between the two persons as defined in the Migration Regulations. The delegate assessed that they do not meet the criteria 309.211, at time of application and 309.221 at the time of decision making of Schedule 2 of the Migration Regulations. The delegate, more specifically, assessed that the definition of “spouse”, as defined in the Regulation 1.15A(1A), was not fulfilled. Regulation 1.15A refers to the definition and assessment of spousal relationship”. The applicant and the sponsor otherwise is seen to fulfill all other criteria of Schedule 2, Subclass 309.

2.0 This appeal is based on documents held in the DIMA File Ref OSF [deleted] (obtained under the Freedom of Information), the Migration Regulations, PAM 3, and relevant MRT and Federal Court cases. Additional documents accompany this appeal to support the claim that a genuine spousal relationship has always existed and continues to exist to the present date. The documents in the DIMA file are marked as [deleted] .

3.0 The delegate also referred to information and the decision record of a previous visa application. On the [deleted] the visa applicant and the sponsor had unsuccessfully applied for a class TO, subclass 300 – Prospective Marriage at the same overseas post. DIMA file reference is [deleted] . That application was refused on the [deleted] on the grounds the parties failed to satisfy the delegate the fulfillment of clause 300.216, i.e the parties have genuine intentions to get married and live as spouses. The refusal decision was not submitted for MRT appeal and now it falls outside the ambit of MRT review due to lapse of time limit. It is merely mentioned here to support our claim elsewhere in this submission of the delegate’s inherent bias in the decision making process of the subsequent subclass 309 visa application.

4.0 For the first s/c 300 visa application the parties were duped into using the misconceived services of an unregistered agent operating illegally within the couple’s ethnic community.
[deleted]
It is however noteworthy that the parties have been frank and spotlessly honest in all their subsequent dealings with the Department. Naturally, the application for the s/c 300 was assessed as not meeting the requirements of clause 300.216, namely that the parties failed to establish the veracity of their claim.

3.0. With the present application, the delegate assessed that the visa applicant and the sponsor do not meet the requirements of “spouse” as defined in clause 309.211 or 309.221, cross referenced to Regulation 15A which defines genuine spousal relationship. The 309.211 requires the visa applicant be the spouse at the time of making the application and continues to be so at the time of decision making as required by clause 309.221. The criteria for a Subclass 309 visa are set out in Part 309 of Schedule 2 to the Regulations and are set out below: [deleted]

4.0. Regulation 1.15A, particularly sub regulation (3) sets out the mandatory considerations to determine whether one person is the 'spouse’ of another person, whether married or in a de facto relationship. The delegate, in arriving at an opinion whether a married relationship exists between the parties is required to consider the circumstances set out in subregulation 1.15A(3). These subregulations relate to all the circumstances of the relationship including, in particular, the (a) financial aspects of the relationship, the (b) nature of the household,, (c) the social aspects of the relationship and (d) nature of the two persons commitment to each other and all other relevant indicators of spousal relationship. The relevant parts of regulation 1.15A are reproduced below: [deleted]

5.0. Policy guidelines for subclass 309 Spouse (Provisional) in Schedule 2 is outlined in PAM as Pam3 Sch2 Visa309 and for the Regulation 1.15A in Pam3 Div1.2/reg1.15A. The essential ingredients for “spousal” relationship in the Regulation 1.15A(1A) operate as follows: [deleted]

6.0. We submit to the Tribunal that there exists a genuine commitment to each other since July 2004 between the parties, and that the genuine spousal relationship between them has endured to this very date in spite of the physical separation. The marital relationship between the parties has never lost its shine even after the visa refusals as demonstrated by the accompanying collaborative evidence, thus meeting the requirements of clauses 309.211, 309.221 and the relevant sub regulations of 1.15A, as understood by the construction of plain words in of these regulations. In support of the claim we submit the following documents : [deleted]

7.0. The main chronological events of the relationship extracted from Folios21 to 33 are as follows:
[deleted]
8.0. In the consideration of all the above events and documents held in the file the question can be posed as :

• Was the visa applicant the spouse of the sponsor at the time of the visa application?

• Was the sponsor an Australian citizen or Permanent residence at the time of the visa application?

• Does the visa applicant continue to be the spouse of the sponsor at the time of decision?
• Does the couple continue to exhibit pattern of behavior that is common between spouses?

[Dot points below highlight the couple’s relationship – [deleted]

The above events and circumstances taken cumulatively and in relation to each other demonstrate a genuine marital relationship between the visa applicant and the sponsor, stemming from an arranged customary marriage within the [deleted] culture. Some of these events are universal indicators of the existence of genuine marital relationship and the couple do hold themselves out to their peer group and the world as being in a genuine relationship..

[Migration Help]

9.0. It is relevant to have an understanding of the social and cultural background of the visa applicant and the sponsor. The visa applicant hails from a rural region of [deleted] and has completed schooling up to 11th year in [deleted] . Her background is that of a rural working class family. She has no employment or career history. She has been assisting in the family household duties confined to routine life style daily. Her father is a [deleted]. She is the youngest child of a family with 4 children. She has very limited exposure to worldly experience and is generally timid. She does not own or operate a computer. At the time of visa application she was 21 years of age and is in the ripe age to marry and settle down according to her family status. As courtship and free association with the opposite gender, as one finds in urban or Western culture, is strongly frowned upon, the responsibility of finding a spouse for her fell on her parents.

10.0. The sponsor and his parents also originate from the same neighborhood in [deleted]. They fled to Australia as refugees in 1989. Now aged 27 the sponsor is the eldest of the 4 boys in a tight knit family of also of rural background. His family members in Perth have maintained strong traditional [deleted] cultural values where the deference to ones parents calls for obedience and obligations even in such matters as marriage and choosing of life partners. In such context, as in many other traditional Asian cultures, parties to arranged marriages are bonded and committed to each other for life even though the partners to the marriage might have met only a few days prior to their marriage day or even on the actual marriage day. The sponsor completed a Tafe Diploma in computer studies 1998. On graduation he commenced work in the family’s horticulture business of strawberry cultivation. His parents and his siblings, including his married sister and her husband, manage a [deleted] business. [deleted] The father and the elder sister take responsibility for the general well being of all the family members. Except for the married sister all family members live in the same household under the strong influence and watchful eyes of the father as the elder of the family. The source of income and the well being of every member of the family, social and economic, is dependent on the careful management of [deleted] , acting collectively and in unison by every individual members of the family unit. Under such circumstances the sponsor does not have the luxury of spare time to indulge in courtship or to choose a spouse on his own violation [deleted].. The responsibility of finding a suitable wife for the obedient son generally fell on his parents. This kind of close knit [deleted] family working cooperatively on a common horticulture enterprise and maintaining the traditional rural [deleted] culture is not uncommon in Multicultural Australia

11.0. It is in the context of the above socio economic family background of the parties that one should look for the fulfillment of the relevant legislation. To understand the background to their marriage, nature of ensuing marital relationship, and the display commitment to each other we refer to Ann Caddel Crawfords writing in the section under Marriage in chapter 6 of her book entitled Customs and Culture of [deleted], attached as Folio 37. It refers to “two distinct groupings as far as the important rite of marriage is concerned. One group is the more modern, who clings to Western innovations and desire similar weddings……with the second group and its traditional rites of engagement and marriage which are highly regarded and practical in [deleted].” She goes on to describe “….As with Confucianism, the physical development of love was not highly regarded. Parents frowned on courtship and falling in love thought badly of its advocates. Marriage was considered to be a duty, and was generally arranged in a non-emotional manner by the elders in the family. …” and “ ..Formerly couples readily submitted to the parents choosing their mates and still do to a great extend in the countryside.” In this context it would be very difficult for a 21 year old girl to express her marital relationship to the satisfaction of the delegate in the consideration of the legislation.
12.0. [deleted] He may well have taken into consideration the untruthful statements of the sponsor from the previous s/c 300 application, and if that is so, one is persuaded to belief that the present decision to refuse the visa may well have been infected with bias. The delegate’s omission to interview the sponsor carries error to the extend one is compelled to question the reliability of the process of the decision making to refuse the visa.

13.0. The contents of the Preliminary Assessment, done on [deleted], well before the interview with the visa applicant, was conducted and attached [deleted]. The tone of the contents of these documents indicate the process was contaminated with a preconceived and pre-emptive, negative decision that was predetermined early in the process. The subsequent interview, and assessment was aimed at supporting that pre-existing biased negative decision.. The bias is reflected in the denial of the existence of certain events and facts, focusing on wrong issues, neglecting to probe and follow up relevant issues, asking for non-existent facts and circumstances. The interview is more of an intimidating interrogation than an information gathering session. The Preliminary Assessment shows:

[deleted]

''It is not possible to carry out a proper investigation of such a complex question as the nature and future prospects of a marriage relationship by conducting one 20 minute interview with each party to the marriage. For most interviews an interview of this kind represents a considerable ordeal. It involves discussing with complete stranger, an official in whose hands one's future is thought to lie, personal -even intimate - matters. [deleted]


14.0. One of the main grounds for visa refusal was the concern of the delegate of the short time of inception for the marital relationship to be genuine. He draws the conclusion that a commitment to each other could not exist as the parties met only short time ago, and therefore he determines that the marriage was arranged for the purpose of visa applicant’s immigration to Australia. This suspicion on the part of the delegate has made all other presenting facts and circumstances surrounding their marriage and the subsequent ongoing spousal relationship has not relevant or worthy of consideration, thus he became oblivious to all other relevant facts. In the FCA in the case of The Minister of State for Immigration, Local Government and Ethnic Affairs and: Gamdur Singh Dhillon and Marcelle Suzanne Maree Lievense Dhillon No.WAG 26 of 1989 FED No.200 Adminsitrative Law –Presiding Judges Northrop, Wilcox and French it was observed that the visa applicant “ subjected to a statutory decision is entitled to have the case determined by reference to found facts, not suspicion or conflict of evidence.” . It was further observed “ It is perfectly possible for parties, or one of them, to enter into a marriage without a genuine intention of living together as man and wife indefinitely and yet, a few months later, for each of them to have that intention. Although the factors noted by Mr Jolly were such as reasonably to excite some suspicion about the nature of the relationship, they could not determine the critical question.

[Migration Help]

15.0. The consideration of the often repeated suspicion of “contrived marriages” or “marriage of convenience” arranged for the purpose of enabling a party to obtain a visa to migrate to Australia, as it was in this case, was put to rest in para 11 of the above “Dhillon” case in observing that “people enter marriages with a variety of purposes and motives, hopes and anticipations, so that it is not possible to classify some purposes etc. as according to what may be described as 'community expectations'. It is not necessarily inconsistent with a genuine marriage relationship that it was entered into by one or both parties with a view to material benefit or advancement, as for example with the hope of becoming eligible to reside in a particular country. The true test, we would suggest the only test, is whether at the time at which the matter has to be decided it can be said that the parties have a mutual commitment to a shared life as husband and wife to the exclusion of others. Mr Jolly never addressed that question. Accordingly, it seems to us that he failed to take into account a relevant consideration. Nonetheless, in reality it is the hope of most parents from third world countries with poor circumstances, such as [deleted] or Punjab, for their eligible daughters to marry an eligible bachelor of same cultural background from a developed country , such as Australia or the United States and emigrate as his genuine spouse. This desire and aspiration does not distract the parties from establishing an ongoing genuine commitment to each other as spouses.

16.0. In the case of the [deleted] the delegate does not give proper consideration to such circumstances as the fact the sponsor has spent three and half months out of 10 months with the visa applicant. He further discounts the significance of the “substantial telephone calls from the sponsor to the applicant”, [deleted] , The delegate does not appreciate the admission of the sponsor not being able to write in [deleted] and as result relied on substantial phone calls to maintain the ongoing marital relationship.

17.0. In the consideration of this appeal we ask the Tribunal to give due consideration all the facts and circumstances, including the statements of the various parties, and determine the marriage was genuine and one that is continuing with mutual commitment to each other to the exclusion of all other persons to this very day.

18.0 The delegate in arriving at an opinion whether a married relationship exists between the parties has applied specifically the definitions specified in Regulation 1.15A(3) as a mandatory requirement. He is required to test if a genuine spousal relationship exists between the visa applicants and the sponsor and in doing so he has to consider all the facts and circumstances relating to (a) financial aspects of the relationship, the (b) nature of the household, (c) the social aspects of the relationship and (d) nature of the two persons commitment to each other and all other relevant indicators of spousal relationship. In the application of the test for genuineness of spousal relationship the decision maker is required to apply the legislation to only the facts of the case, at the time of the application and at the time of the decision making. The delegate should consider all the facts and circumstances and engage in a balancing exercise of all facts, events and circumstances. In the counterbalancing exercise equal weight should be given to all the facts to arrive at an equitable and fair decision. In particular,…..

[deleted]


19.0 We have claimed that the delegate has not probed into the relevant aspects of arranged customary marriage but applies the legislation in a narrow and restrictive manner, seeking evidence of commitment to each other as a stylized romance under the norms of a relationship as would be found in an urban lifestyle or in Western cultures in considering the (d) nature of the two persons commitment to each other. Further, the delegate “ does not consider the conception of a child to be proof that the applicant and the sponsor have been in an exclusive and ongoing relationship as spouses. [deleted] This is in contradiction to the above cited “Tran” case where it was observed that confirmation of a child born to the parentage of the visa applicant and the sponsor is one of the strongest indicative factors or integers that meets the requirement of regulation 1.15A – i.e existence of genuine spousal relationship as asserted by the parties. At the interview the delegate questions the paternity of the pregnancy but does not take up the offer by the visa applicant to undergo DNA test to clear his doubt. The family has now arranged for a DNA test to be done by an accredited Sydney laboratory, in spite of the heavy cost to the family, with the fear that failure to do so may jeopardize the credibility of their claim and cause the Tribunal to affirm the delegate’s decision, [deleted].The test result will be ready in about 4 weeks time. [deleted]

20.0 In this submission we have shown that the sponsor is legally married to the Visa applicant, and collaborative documents:

• show the marriage is genuine, ongoing, with firm commitment to each other to the exclusion of all others. These evidences taken cumulatively and in relation to each other shows that the marriage was not arranged for the sole purpose of gaining resident status to Australia.
• The genuine spousal relationship has endured to this day since 2004 in spite of the trials and tribulations during the two years.
• The sponsor is an Australian citizen.
• The sponsor has demonstrated care, concern, love and commitment to his wife and his child, as best as he can within his means and with the limitations of the parties separated in two countries. The sponsor returns to his spouse home [deleted], lives with her and his child regularly. He spends the major part his income to travel to [deleted]and he regularly sends money to the visa applicant. He gives them gifts, baby formula and milk powder, likewise the wife too sends simple gifts to the sponsor. Sponsor and wife speak to each other through phone almost every other day. In various statements they express love for each other with the desperate hope that they would be united and able to live in Australia as a single family unit. Their intention to maintain their marital life is beyond any doubt.
• If the subclass 309 visa is refused the wife with the infant would be permanently separated and forced to live apart in [deleted] with the occasional visit of the sponsor. They would be deprived of the physical love and affection of the sponsor as the father and as the husband.
• The family would be denied the opportunity to be united and live under the same home as a single family unit

******************

Hope this helps.

MH

[Sheelagh Blanckenberg]

Dear Robert

Thanks so much for letting us use your submission and post excerpts from it on the forum. I hope it helps you Babybah and also any other applicants who may be facing a similar issue.

Kind regards
Sheelagh

[Robert]

You are most welcome Sheelagh. I understand that one of the objectives of this MH forum is to assist visitors to gain some confidence and knowledge to overcome difficulties with procedural matters.

It is impossible to give individual attention with details to each query. We are all busy with our daily responsibility to our fee paying clients. But where it helps others in general terms I am sure a number of agents would be generous with advicse and assistance.


Robert K Chelliah
www.austmigration.com.au
rkc@austmigration.com.au

[Babybah]

Thanks Robert & the MH staff for posting this submission!
Its been great to read.
Kind Regards,
BabyBah =)

[Sheelagh Blanckenberg]

No worries Babybah.

To all who are interested in this issue, I would like to point out that this MRT case of Robert's is several years old. The migration regulations and supporting policy and procedures mentioned in the excerpt above are outdated.

If you are mounting your own appeal in the MRT it is imperative you refer to the legislation at the date which pertains to your particular circumstances otherwise you could face another refusal based on technical/legal grounds

Babybah please keep us updated on how you go. Your experience will be invaluable for any other readers who face a similar issue.

Good luck.
Sheelagh

[Robert]

Just a small point of clarification. The reg and some procedural matters may have changed and are still changing now and than, however, the underlying thrust of addressing some often repeated grounds of refusal are still there to be addressed.


Robert K Chelliah
www.austmigration.com.au

[RainTears]

Hi All,

I'm so glad that it work out good for you wish all the luck

For a moment I thought you talking about us, it seems Australian embassy at Egypt
is worst in representing Australian, My fiancee Visa been rejected sine 31.1.10,
and no one notify until we called yesterday to check, they email us the rejection Letter what was in the letter was an insult really

we will be applying for an appeal. I've noticed sir that your are WA, I'm at NSW
please advice if you know any good lawyer same as your experience and skills to
go with the process. really shattered , dunno what to do now.

how can I contact you or send you the letter for your view?

Your guidance really appreciated.

Kind Regards

[Sheelagh Blanckenberg]

Dear RainTears

Welcome to the Migration Help forum. I can understand the name you have chosen to post under - I am so sorry to hear your spouse application has been refused. What a terrible blow to you both.

Unfortunately spouse applications have one of the highest refusal rates of all visa classes. There are many reasons for this but one of the biggest problems DIAC have to wrestle with is fraud. Not to say in anyway that I think your application was fraudulent mind you. Its just that there is a great deal of fraud committed in this visa class and DIAC tend to be very heavy-handed in their assessments. As also mentioned further back in this thread there is also a lot of cultural bias and unawareness of how various ethnic cultures operate by our immigration authorities.

Robert Chelliah has let me know he would be happy to assist you at the MRT if you are looking for a migration agent to represent you. He is travelling overseas at the moment so please get in touch by sending him an email. His email address is rkc@austmigration.com.sg. It would be helpful if you send a copy of the decision record you have just received. If you wish to know more about Robert and his team please go to his website www.austmigration.com.au .

Although Robert is based in WA and you are in NSW does not mean he cannot assist. Most migration agents have clients who are based around the country and around the world for that matter. Very easy to do these days with the internet and Skype etc, so do not worry. Robert is one of the most skilled practitioners around when it comes to multicultural spouse cases and the MRT. You will be in very good hands.

Once again I am so sorry to hear of your problem. However, chin up and go forward determined to win! We will do what we can to help.

Kind regards
Sheelagh

[RainTears]

Dear Sheelagh,

Thank you for your informative reply, I will contact MR Robert and I hope he will be back soon, as we only been given 90 days to appeal, which they lost 8 days without informing us.

yes I agree Immigration should check application from fraud, and these assesment should not also be a down side for honest people who choose to get married and re-union, specially in my case it's hard for me to leave my kids as my e-husband will not allow them to leave the country, and many other factors.

The language of the assessment officer and attitude was judging us in person she judges my honesty and trust, she judge my previous divorced as it's a crime to get married again and go on with life. she asked him a question in the interview, how could trust that she wont leave you the way she left her husband. while she was informed of my reason of the divorce and the nightmare that cause me to get over it. even that i answered her out of curiosity in email, she did not mention it. she put question she asked in the interview that was never asked to him and she add an answer has no idea were she got it from. if she do not believe it's a real marriage why we have to provide NOIM from registered marriage celebrant. it's just a joke.

it's a real disappoint that I'm a well respectful person in my career and experience and my fiancee is a lawyer to be treated with Australian embassy like that. it gives a bad attitude about Australian while we are a harmony nation with diverse multi cultural.

but this will be in another complain i will lodge once i finalized my appeal.

once again I thank you very much for your time and effort.

I will keep this post updated of my finding maybe it will also help another people.

Kind Regards

[Babybah]

Hi RainTears,

I'm so sorry to hear you have gone through the same night mare as me with the Egyptian Embassy here in Cairo. Sounds like we had the same SMO... She was absolutely horrible the worst day of my life, which took me 3 wks to get over... She also put in our rejection letter, things she didn't even ask and answered them exactly like your situation.. She said to me in the interview as I'm living with my husband in Egypt till we get his visa, that she has seen time and time again, Egyptian men marrying older women (i am 9yrs older) waiting the 3yrs for their permanent residency and then leaving them and coming back to Egypt to get a younger (virgin) wife. I was floored by her attitude and what she said... it was the only time she looked at me, most of the time she sat their typing... but that was such a big focus to her.. My husband has also been married before and myself and she said to him... How come you have been married twice, why have you been married 2 times in 5yrs?? (me being his second marriage) he said it didn't work out and she looked at him like she didn't believe him... she also asked him his age then asked him my age (which i know she already new from our application) and when he said it, she pulled her whoole head back and said in a shocked voice... WHAAT! he said whats wrong with that, I think of my wife as the same as me... (which we do as we don't even think of it, until she made such a big deal about it). Anyway, i could go on and on about what she did, i wrote a complaint straight away.. We have now lodged our application with the MRT, it took me a month to get over the shock before I applied... I can't believe that she can get away with this.... Its very unfair... I think the reason is alot of Egyptians don't stand up to them... Anyway, I'm here if you need anything... I know exactly what you are feeling now... I have 3 kids and they are in Australia and I'm being torn in two at the moment... I can't sleep without sleeping tablets and have been so depressed its not funny.... We are doing the MRT on our own, we can't afford to spend any more money on migration agents, lawyers etc.... Its a pretty simple process really and the MRT seem very fair and have been fantastic, my sister is my representative in Australia as they can't send mail here in case i don't get it and there is a time frame... she calls them all the time and they said to call them when ever we have questions as they will do their best to answer them and give us time frames etc...
I felt like i was the only one who has been rejected as I am on another forum as well and every second day someone is getting their visa... I have also made some really good friends from the forum also...

My heart goes out to you
BabyBah :(
P.S I actually started this post on the forum...

[Babybah]

I also agree there are cases where they are fraudulent, but that doesn't mean every single couple should be judged like they are also. Its like guilty before proven innocent in the embassy in Egypt. I think with the right questions and looking at you while they interview you and not making pre judgements, you can read alot about a couple. Especially their body language, statements, photo's, everything we gave in application was over time, we couldn't of made that up on the spot... And I'm sure not every single couple that goes for the spouse visa that is Egyptian has been fraudulent... It just makes me so mad that someone like that can make a decision that affects your life so dramatically. Babybah

[RainTears]

Dear Babybah

Thank you for your reply, yes seems we had same SMO in our case her intials (M.A)
I was having close look at the letter, she put in one of the points that we did not meet one year of relationship , calculate the length between my two visit to Egypt only, while we knew each other since 2006, traveled two time in 2007 and 2008 and application was lodged in Nov 2009, to her from 2006 - 2009 it's less than one :)
God help Us and give her a course of in mathematics,
really dunno what to say only that pain makes us laugh out loud.

one of the funny point that real show how they are narrow minded that she said in Egyptian cultural engagement should be a big party that everyone should have while the family party was not enough to her while we also wear rings with names and date engraving
Dunno maybe she also has to pick the ring for us who knows!!!


Babybah I hope thing wok out well to you,
I will keep you posted if a miracle shines out.

Kind Regards

[Babybah]

Hi RainTears,

Yes that is the same SMO. I thought she was just bias against me and my husband but it seems she has an issue with Egyptian men going to Australia.
She also put questions and answered them in our rejection letter that she didn't even ask us both. She said we moved in together in December when in fact it was April. She also said we got married 1 wk after my husbands divorce was finalized but it was actually 3mths but in another point she had the correct date??? Obviously she just flicked through our statements and application and picked dates to answer her own questions that she didn't ask... there were quite a few in there...

We'll we didn't even have an engagement party and that wasn't mentioned in our rejection letter, maybe she forgot about that one...
She's not making me laugh at the moment, she's making me very mad!!! Grrrrrrr

I can't believe you have gone through the same SMO also, God help anyone else, she's certainly a piece of work thats for sure.. Anyway if you would like to contact me via email my email address is babybah@ymail.com ~ I've had a look on here to see if i can send you a private message but they don't seem to have that function on here like most other forums??? Take care and be strong... Love will prevail in the end :)

[Robert]

An adverse statutory decision cannot be infected with unfound or irrelevant facts or inferences that cannot be substantiated ated. Very often, personal bias and unfounded inferences made by the case officer can be easily identified in their decsion record, and notaions in the case file.
Looks like case officers in Egypt needs one MRT case to be remitted in which the PMO should be asked to review how their locally recruited staff and Australian case officers are making too many flawed decsions.

]rkc@austmigration.com.sg[/email]
61 8 92464088

[Babybah]

Well just an update with me
We had our MRT hearing and got the fantastic news our visa rejection has been overturned..
Can't describe in words how happy I am feeling right now.... =))))))
I done it myself and now will be getting a refund of the $1400 to add to our joy. YAY
"OVER THE MOON" right now...

[Migration Help]

What great news babybah! Well done to you and your spouse - time for celebrations for sure.

And thank you for sharing your experience on this forum. It is news of wins like this that gives hope to others in similar bleak circumstances.

MH

[AladdinsHeart]

CONGRATULATIONS Babybah, fantastic news ! :)

[Babybah]

Thank you so much MH & AladdinsHeart :)

I would just like to add to anyone out there who has to deal with the MRT in Sydney
They have been absolutely fantastic and have answered any of our questions in depth that we wanted or needed to know! It was so comforting to deal with such a compassionate & competent department and who could see the stress this whole process had put on on me and my husband. They made us feel at all times at ease and that we weren't just a number or file, that we are real people going through real emotional, mental & physical turmoil.
Babybah

[Babybah]

Dear Babybah

Thank you for your reply, yes seems we had same SMO in our case her intials (M.A)
I was having close look at the letter, she put in one of the points that we did not meet one year of relationship , calculate the length between my two visit to Egypt only, while we knew each other since 2006, traveled two time in 2007 and 2008 and application was lodged in Nov 2009, to her from 2006 - 2009 it's less than one :)
God help Us and give her a course of in mathematics,
really dunno what to say only that pain makes us laugh out loud.

one of the funny point that real show how they are narrow minded that she said in Egyptian cultural engagement should be a big party that everyone should have while the family party was not enough to her while we also wear rings with names and date engraving
Dunno maybe she also has to pick the ring for us who knows!!!


Babybah I hope thing wok out well to you,
I will keep you posted if a miracle shines out.

Kind Regards

Hi Raintears,

Just wondering if you are still about as I have come across quite a few cases that have been put through hell with the Egyptian embassy (5 so far that have gone through or are going through the MRT & a few others waiting for their outcome) and just wanting to let you know that we can all support & help each other through this grueling process. Please get in contact with me as I can then lead you to these other couples.
Kind Regards,
Babybah

[realist07]

What is the next step now? After winning MRT , what is actaully gonna happen?
how many months you have to wait for pozitiv decision from DIAC.

embassy has any right to refuse this case again?

[Babybah]

VISA GRANTED TODAY!!!! YAY!!

So glad this nightmare has finally come to an end and we can move forward with our lives together!

Cannot wait to go back home to Australia with my husband and see my family again and start a new chapter of our lives together.....

all i can say is WHOOOOOO HOOOOOOOO!!!!! :D

[Sheelagh Blanckenberg]

What wonderful news babybah!! I am so pleased for you.

Thank you for sharing your experience on our forum and being so helpful to others in your situation. If you have the time and inclination perhaps you can visit us periodically and give strength to other applicants who are going through what you have done.

Good luck!

[Babybah]

What wonderful news babybah!! I am so pleased for you.

Thank you for sharing your experience on our forum and being so helpful to others in your situation. If you have the time and inclination perhaps you can visit us periodically and give strength to other applicants who are going through what you have done.

Good luck!

Thanks Sheelagh! :)
Yes I will, If anyone needs any help or wants questions answered who have gone through the same thing, I'm always willing to help and answer them! :)

[Rags]

Hi,

My husband is in australia on student visa since june 2008. We got married in jan 2010 and he applied for my visa under student dependent visa category but the australian immigration agency rejected our application to grant me visa because of the following reason:

My husband has taken a education loan of 7 lakh indian rupees in june 2008 while joining the studies in australia and he shown his father's GPF funds in support of financial status. He was doing a part time job there along with the studies and managed his expenses. But did a mistake that he closed his educational loan account in 3-4 months of joining the course.

They rejected our application asking that he is not having sufficient funds for survival of both of us and because of lack of documents to justify how he managed his living expenses there. We are having all the documents with us?

Should we re apply? Please suggest.

[Rhiannon]

Hi Raintears,

Just wondering if you are still about as I have come across quite a few cases that have been put through hell with the Egyptian embassy (5 so far that have gone through or are going through the MRT & a few others waiting for their outcome) and just wanting to let you know that we can all support & help each other through this grueling process. Please get in contact with me as I can then lead you to these other couples.
Kind Regards,
Babybah

Hi there,
I am currently going through the spouse visa application process which was lodged through the Australian Embassy in Cairo. I can say that the interview was pretty tough for my husband and I but I believe we went ok however there is always that inkling feeling that my husband and I may not go well. After reading the posts within this thread, I am now worried about the outcome of the application.

May I ask how long it took for the intial decision to be made once you attended the interview? I hear that it is usually a month to 2 months however I was hoping to ask someone who has had direct experience dealing with the embassy. To date, I have been waiting for 3 weeks exactly.

Thanks and Kind Regards,
Rhiannon